Welcome to our weekly donnybrook, in which most Barrelstrengthians take vigorous exception to some moderate, well reasoned view of Oban. Today’s rumble is on Islam/Palestine/Israel. Rebel Yell started it with a piece in the Jerusalem Post praising Harper at Obama’s expense.
Prime Minister Harper may not get many kudos from our drivelling liberal press,
but his positions are certainly not viewed the same way where it matters in the
world….. (cites Jerusalem Post on Harper versus Obama).
Then Arran Gold chimes in
“I voted for Obama and all I got was a crotch-cupping”.
Oban tries to be reasonable, as is his wont:
My observation is that for a Canadian PM full throated support for Israel is cheap – it starts to shake Jewish support from the Liberal Party, appeals to religous fundamentalists, and is largely a reflection of domestic political interests and calculations.
The US has different interests. An Israeli-Palestinian peace would relieve a major irritant in its relations with the Muslim world, much of Europe and Africa. No US President has viewed Israeli settlements with any enthusiasm, and all have seen colonisation of the West Bank as a serious impediment to finding a peaceful settlement to the Arab-Israeli conflicts. Papa Bush, Baby Bush and Clinton all have opposed extension of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and been extremely sensitive to development in Jerusalem. That is because an Arab-Israeli peace is in the interests of the United States. The Obama government senses an opportunity for a settlement and wants Israel to back off of provocative development schemes while the parties negotiate. That seems reasonable to me. If the area in which development is presently restrained emerges as part of Israel after a peace accord, then settlement can go ahead.
If not, then the development shouldn’t take place – at least for some reasonable period to permit negotiations to proceed.
It seems to me that the differing Canadian and US positions are ones of nuance. Canada has no role in overseeing the settlement process. It has neither the power, credibility or interest to sponsor or guarantee the end result. For the US, it has huge interests in the outcome of the process, will likely be its primary guarantor as well as a beneficiary
of peace. If it were Canada that were to sponsor the peace talks, you can bet without a shadow of doubt that it would be very sensitive to Israeli settlements outside the boundaries of 1967 Israel, as it would be of Arab terrorism, militias in Lebanon, etc. etc.
At this point, everyone piles on Oban. Arran Gold chides Oban in these terms:
Oban, your view of this is very western, very white, very christian and totally leftist.
I once met a captain in the Canadian military who had just returned from a peacekeeping mission in the Balkans. I talked to him about his mission and he shared some insights. He said that they said to him “Why are you guys getting involved in this? This fight is centuries old”. Essentially both sides were waiting for them to leave so that they could at it again. Similarly, there is no reason to believe that a “peace” agreement will be the end of it as far as muslims are concerned. It sure isn’t likey to “relieve a major irritant … with the Muslim world”
I get my oar in as follows:
I agree with Arran Gold’s remarks (on Brother Oban), save with regard to “leftist”. I
think many sensible people share Oban’s views. I no longer consider them realistic.
The point I have reached in re the Israeli thing is that it would make little difference to Arab opinion if Israel subjected the Palestinians to a march past under a triumphal arch and then slaughtered every male older than 12, and filmed it, as regards how the Muslims look at israel.
This reflects my increased understanding of Islam, which sees the Jews as a hideous uncleanness that must be extirpated from the face of the earth, and in which Islam is either or any of the following:
a) a totalitarian political ideology (sharia)
b) a psychosis (Arab male dominated family structure, and incessant violence within the family, and a defence against shame)
c) an ideological justification of slavery, both of chattel slavery (Christians in the past, and possibly the future) and sexual slavery (of women).
I have, as it were,”jumped the shark”. But I invite all who think this view to be extreme to read the texts and see the propaganda of Islam itself, and see how they actually treat each other. Then you decide.
Rebel Yell cannot resist rejoinder.
Folks:
“Relieving an irritant” is a major red-herring in the political discourse. It
stems from a misunderstanding of the Israeli-Islamic stand-off.
Islam will never be satisfied until Israel is eliminated and the Jews destroyed.
”Occupation” to the Muslims means the very existence of Israel itself. It was
not “cheap” at all for PM Harper to make that stand–”cheap” would have been
kow-towing to the Islamic bloc in the UN–something the Liberals would do only
too willingly under the slippery guidance of Iggy.
“The Obama government senses an opportunity for a settlement”.. No it doesn’t.
It senses a further opportunity to ingratiate itself before Muslim despots and
drag America’s reputation through the mud again. America has done great works
for freedom, not the least of which is standing up for the small guy threatened
by an army of ignorant thugs, a.k.a. in this case, the Islamic world. The Arabs
would not have lost the West Bank had they not on several occasions tried to
destroy Israel, so tough luck on losing the property. Despite that, on several
occasions, Israel has made offers of returning upwards of 95% of the lands, only
to be rebuffed again by the Arabs.
The different positions of the Obama regime and the Canadian government are
considerably more than “nuance”, a flaccid word for a flabby position on a
crucial topic. PM Harper was quite right and deserves extra kudos for taking
such a spirited stand. On the other hand, Hussein took the opportunity of
bashing Israel again in Indonesia, his homeland, a land which doesn’t even allow
Israeli citizens to visit, and which treated his own wife with contempt and with
no objection from him. If Hussein’s understanding of the Islamic world really
is reflected in the appallingly inaccurate speech he gave at Cairo university,
then Israel would do well to avoid all his suggestions as much as possible.
When Islamic countries allow Christians and Jews and Hindus etc. to live as
citizens with equal rights, then there might be a possibility of a settlement.
I don’t see it happening any time soon. And until that time, Israel should
stay alert and not be sucked in to devious arrangements with any state. The
Muslim nations have to show that they can live up to an agreement, ANY
AGREEMENT, and stick to it. We all know what their record is on that one.
And when Iran gets the Bomb, all the “nuance-ing” in the world is not going to
produce any settlement. And the Appeaser-in-Chief will have some ’splainin to
do.
Caol Illa responds to Oban:
While I respect your opinion I think your analysis of the situation is at least 20 years out of date.
Regarding the political situation in Canada it is a fact that for the last 60 years, at least,the Liberal Party sought the support of the Jewish community and received it. As a result the Liberals won a number of ridings they would not otherwise have held. The Liberals rewarded the loyalty of the Jewish community so long as there was not a better deal elsewhere. Then the demographics changed, Muslims became more numerous than Jews and the Liberals abandoned Israel in favour of the Palestiians. The Conservatives have not won a seat in which the Jewish community was a significant factor until 2008, when they won the riding of Thornhill. Ridings like York Centre, Eglington-Lawrence and Mount Royal remain Liberal. Even in the Mulroney sweep of 1984 all these ridings voted Liberal. Even though the Liberals have abandoned the Jews, the Jews, especially the secular Jews have not abandoned the Liberals. Therefore, I think you are wrong to suggest that our PM is supporting Israel for narrow partisan purposes.
As for there being any hope for a “peacful settlement to the Arab-Israeli conflicts” I would say that whereas that might once have been possible, those days are long past and I think your opinion may be based more on wishful thinking than an analysis of what is happening on the ground in Gaza and the West Bank. Not only did the former Palestinian leadership torpedo the Oslo Accord, more important the new elected government of Gaza, Hamas, have repeatedly stated they are not interested in a peaceful settlement of the Palestinian conflict. Hamas’ chief supporter, Iran claims it wants to annihilate Israel. That replaces the former PLO policy regarding Israel of “driving them into the sea”. I cannot find the seeds of a peaceful solution in those policies. Just to be clear about its intentions Hamas continues to fire rockets into random targets in Israel even when it knows Israel is bound to retaliate. Not the actions of those desiring peace.
I am glad Stephen Harper has stood up to the illiterate, hate fueled thugs who rule the Arab world. With Obama’s abandonment of Israel somebody needs to stand up and say we will not sit idly by while the only pluralistic liberal democracy in the Middle East is bullied by it’s much larger neighbours. At this point it is diplomatic support and not military action that Israel needs. If Obama is too foolhardy to do it I am glad we have a Stephen Harper around to do so. I wish the world had a few more leaders with the strength of character to stand up for what is right instead of what is politically expedient.
Oban is still talking to us.