It started with Roger Scruton, naturally. A review of his book, “The Uses of Pessimism”, by Ed West in the Telegraph got me going, Oban responded, and Rebel Yell got into it.
Here is a quote from Scruton’s book:
“As Scruton notes: “Since the 1960s western countries have adopted policies in the matter of immigration that no person schooled in the elementary truths of pessimism would have endorsed. Anybody who has studied the fate of empires, and the difficulties of establishing territorial jurisdiction over communities that differ in religion, language and marital customs, knows that the task is all but impossible, and threatens constantly to break down in fragmentation, tribalism or civil war.”
Ed West continued in his Telegraph review:
Like Communism, mass immigration was based on a denial of human nature, and an inability to distinguish between what might work in individual human relationships and in society as a whole. Just because people of different groups are capable of getting on perfectly well as individuals, becoming friends and falling in love, it does not mean that a multicultural society (and one as diverse as ours will be multicultural as well as multiracial, whatever the Government does) can become a racism-free paradise; anymore than the willingness of people to give money to perfect strangers means Communism can work.
There were other comparisons with Communism: thought crimes were created, and eventually passed into law; dissidents were made public enemies (it was Scruton who published Ray Honeyford’s article about multiculturalism in Bradford, for which the headmaster was victimised and vilified); history was rewritten to educate the next generation in the new realities of their multicultural history; and children were indoctrinated “to embed a culture of equality in our schools and communities“. Even the language was changed, so that holders of non-revolutionary opinions could not express their opinions without becoming outcasts.
Contrary to what was said after Communism fell, we did not reach the end of history, merely a new chapter in the endless story of human stupidity.
This set me going on a rant of agreement and Oban responded:
History is full of multiethnic states that endured for hundreds of years: Persian, Roman, Holy Roman. It is also replete with examples of sub-national states that endured for centuries: Athens, Venice, the Hanseatic states. The United States is politically wholly immigrant. Pessimists have repeatedly asserted that this or that wave of immigration would be fatal to the body politic (remember the general perception that southern Europeans were of lesser intelligence and would harm morals and prosperity as they would be unassimilable).
Pessimism invites despair and paralysis as well as provoking reaction and the combatting of threats based on false fears.
Yes, optimism can be seen to invite many false policies, and possibly paper over real differences.
Neither pessimism nor optimism reflect objective reality: the genius of politics is to make decisions where pessimistic and optimistic outcomes differ and implement laws, policies, make investments, etc. where only intuition and experience can guide the choices to be made.
I found nothing convincing in the piece, and nothing that that matches the reality that humans have at times enjoyed long periods when relative peace and prosperity were protected and furthered in multiethnic multicultural states. The multiethnic empires of America and the Soviets did well in that regard. The failure of the latter permitted the genocidal tendencies in the Balkans to emerge, and only the decison of the Americans to impose order has permitted the end to the bloodletting.
The fact that states fail and empires collapse is no argument against having a state or enjoying the benefits of empire. I can’t control the future. Neither can the Pole who knows that he sits on the North German Plain and that only multinational structures can inhibit either the Germans or the Russians from rolling over him. Whether an optimist or a pessimist, I think he would vote for multinational institutions and arrangements, and might well think that the European Union is the best thing to happen to his country in, say, 300 years.
This sent Rebel Yell into orbit:
I think that Oban manages to miss the point entirely. The Roman Empire, or the Austro-Hungarian Empire were only “multi-ethnic” to the extent that they incorporated many nations. The basis of rule was Roman Law. All subscribed to that, either willingly or forcibly.
Modern multiculturalism is entirely different: it seeks to undermine the basis of our Civilization by allowing other cultures to usurp the solid basis of Western, Christian values, especially by Islam, which is totally intolerant. Islam will not rest until it has destroyed us. You liberals are just like the Old Bolsheviks who went before the firing squads, saying “Long Live Comrade Stalin”.
To which Oban replied:
Let us be straight – I do not believe in multiculturalism. I think it is a sham and a pestilence once you get beyond subsidising folk dancing in funny outfits. In Canada it is one of a number means by which the existence of English Canada has been denied and denigrated: laregly to fight Quebec separatism, but also to court immigrant votes.
However, the article on which we spoke is not actually an attack on multiculturalism – but on optimism. That strikes me as blaming lung cancer on breathing.
Optimism is the tendency to mortgage your house to finance your small business. Or to build dikes to reclaim land from the sea. Either project may fail, but can also succeed.
Society needs both optimists and pessimists, because it is impossible to be a realist sometimes (you can’t know what is reality). So optimists build dikes. Pessimists say you can’t build a dike with those materials. The optimists (who can be very realistic) says fine – we will use better materials; or build the dike higher, or whatever.
In my view the Islamist threat is real but limited. I think Europe will have a harder time than North America in dealing with Islam, and much of it results not from multiculturalism, but rather from the failure of the European states to recognise themselves as migration destinations. North Americans have always had a self-understanding as migration destinations, and have developed economic and social policies to integrate immigrants, and so have not had the same phenomenon of a large underclass of labour who are excluded from participation in key aspects of their host societies. France, for instance, has no real process to integrate illegals into the country, resulting in poor educational, health and other critical social supports.
When I worked in refugee law, the French took pride in how few refugees were accepted and therefore how poor our high acceptance rates were. But gosh, so what? Migrants have arrived in massive numbers and one cannot realistically believe that deportation is an option. They are there to stay. The bottom line is that France has an underclass of millions who do not officially belong and whose children don’t belong. Canada has largely integrated the hundreds of thousand of refugees whom we received since the 1980’s. They become citizens, vote, their children go to school.
I am the first to recognise that all of this can be pretty difficult (pessimism), but not impossible (immigration rates were relatively higher in the two decades prior to the First World War)(optimism).
Islam can be read many ways. The Prophet was prolix and redundant. Wahabiism has only become widely influential in the west because we permit the Saudis to subsidise our mosques and staff their imams.
Amongst the greatest challenges to Canadian society is the importation of Tamil Tigers, Jamaican gangs and Chinese triads. I would submit that defanging those is, overall, a greater challenge than integrating muslims.
That said, I think Jason Kenny is doing pretty well at laying down some markers to immigrant communities and any notions that they may have about bringing their peculiar forms of inhumanity with them.
-Oban